So many entrepreneurs have speculated about whether or not they need to be publishing longer posts or simply extra steadily. Which is able to lead to extra visitors? Extra leads? HubSpot took it upon themselves to seek out out as soon as and for all with an epic publishing experiment that befell over the course of six months.
On this episode of the Call to Action podcast, HubSpot’s Advertising and marketing Weblog Editor Ginny Soskey offers us the thin on HubSpot’s outcomes.
You’ll hear:
- How a late night time Twitter dialog between HubSpot and Moz writers impressed the experiment.
- Which sort of submit shocked Ginny by being a poor performer.
- How their findings have modified the way in which that Ginny manages the editorial calendar and the content material HubSpot creates.
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Learn the transcript
On this episode: Dan Levy, Unbounce’s Content material Strategist, interviews Ginny Soskey, Advertising and marketing Weblog Editor at HubSpot.
Stephanie: Hey everybody. It’s Stephanie Saretsky right here from Unbounce, and also you’re listening to Name to Motion, the podcast about creating higher advertising and marketing experiences. From time to time you come throughout a weblog submit that makes you cease and rethink every thing that you simply’ve been doing along with your advertising and marketing technique. You recognize, the sort of submit that form of blows your thoughts. Nicely, not too long ago HubSpot revealed the outcomes of an epic weblog publishing experiment that befell over the course of six months. They needed to see if they might unravel the previous amount versus high quality content material debate — whether or not it’s higher to spend money on extra content material or just higher content material — and the way that impacts each weblog visitors and lead era over time.
Unbounce’s Content material Strategist Dan Levy spoke with Ginny Soskey, Advertising and marketing Weblog Editor at HubSpot about how a late-night Twitter dialog between HubSpot and Moz workers impressed the experiment and the way their findings have began to rework HubSpot’s content material technique. Plus, Dan asks the query we’ve all been questioning about. What’s up with these fluffy HubSpot weblog posts like “Ten Scrumptious Recipes You Can Make in Your Workplace Kitchen?”
Dan: This was a very advanced and impressive experiment that you simply guys ran. What had been you pondering? No, I’m simply kidding.
Ginny: Like why did you even do that within the first place?
Dan: What had been you pondering? No, I’m really actually to listen to the story behind it, like the place did the thought come from, and what had been you hoping to get out of it?
Ginny: Completely. Actually, it began one very late night time in January off of a Twitter dialog. Rand Fishkin from Moz had tweeted about us and mentioned, “Hey, HubSpot publishes loads of posts. I’m wondering why they’re publishing a lot, like I’m positive they’ve examined it.” Some folks at my firm had gotten concerned and had been like, “Yeah, we’ve examined it earlier than, however we must always in all probability check it once more.” The final time that we had examined it was mid-2013, so loads had modified since then.
We had employed so many individuals on our staff. Our staff had tripled. We had fully redesigned our weblog. We had found this factor, which we name internally historic optimization the place we replace and republish previous posts and conversion optimize them within the course of. We had new merchandise that may assist us observe all this, and people are just some issues that had occurred since then. So we thought, “Let’s take a while to determine this out.” At first I used to be like, “This would possibly take me a pair weeks.” Little did I do know it will take six months.
Dan: Proper.
Ginny: However on the finish of it, I really feel like now we have such a fantastic foundation for our editorial technique, and I can really say, “This submit sort works a lot better for us.” It’s a lot simpler for me to provide course to our writers and anyone within the firm that want to contribute, so I’d say it’s six months properly spent.
Dan: Yeah, it should provide you with a lot extra confidence in your editorial technique that what you guys are doing, then it’s worthwhile.
Ginny: Completely. I believe with any editorial technique, loads of it’s primarily based in your intestine irrespective of how a lot information you have got. You might have two posts that do rather well. They each generate very comparable ranges of use and leads and no matter different metrics you’re monitoring, however in case you solely can publish one submit a day, how do you prioritize that?
Dan: There’s a lot that I wanna ask you about, however first let’s speak a bit bit in regards to the metrics you guys use in your weblog as a result of deciding on these metrics is clearly one thing that comes first.
Ginny: Yeah.
Dan: You wrote that the three metrics that you simply guys have a look at are views, new leads and subscribers. How did you decide on these three?
Ginny: Yeah, so our weblog is a very necessary a part of our complete enterprise and complete funnel, so we actually strive to have a look at our weblog outcomes primarily based on that. So so far as the enterprise goes, we’d like to have the ability to present that we’re producing leads, in order that’s initially lead era. That’s why now we have that as a metric, however we additionally care in regards to the actually necessary technique of getting folks into the funnel within the first place, so now we have to have a look at viewers development. You possibly can’t have simply leads, or you’ll be able to’t simply have viewers development, so we attempt to give ourselves a extra holistic view by taking a look at views to see what sort of subjects persons are most eager about and how much codecs persons are most eager about.
The subscriber is rather like that half step between views and leads. These are people who find themselves just a bit bit extra engaged with us. They really wanna hear from us on a constant foundation, after which lead era – individuals who wanna hear from us extra usually than that and possibly could be eager about our software program.
Dan: So a weblog subscriber isn’t the identical factor as a brand new lead. They go on separate lists, I suppose.
Ginny: Oh, yeah, positively. To grow to be a weblog subscriber, it’s a must to solely give us your e-mail.
Dan: Proper.
Ginny: We don’t must know anything about you. A lead, however, has to fill out a type that’s typically 13 fields lengthy.
Dan: Wow.
Ginny: And it’s like that’s deliberately, proper. You actually wanna guarantee that it’s an excellent match for everyone concerned if we’re gonna really rotate that result in gross sales or one thing like that.
Dan: Uh huh, and I think about having all these type fields additionally exhibits that lead that you simply guys are severe about attending to know them and what their wants are.
Ginny: Yeah, completely. We don’t wanna simply name you and be like, “So are you a marketer?”
Dan: Proper.
Ginny: We wanna know what you’re eager about, what are your challenges, so it makes these conversations simpler and extra related for all concerned.
Dan: Okay, so let’s get to the experiment itself. I don’t suppose we must always go an excessive amount of into the methodology and the opposite nerdy particulars. The submit lays all that stuff out actually, rather well, and it’s tremendous fascinating however in all probability not as fascinating to listen to us discuss than it’s to examine, so let’s reduce to the chase. What was the discovering? It was all about amount versus high quality, so do you have to create extra content material of a decrease high quality or much less content material of a better high quality?
Ginny: So I’m in all probability gonna give a cop-out reply right here, however I believe they’re actually unbiased variables. It’s important to have a minimal variety of posts to do something, proper. When you’re attempting to develop, and also you’re posting one time per week, chances are high it’s in all probability simpler to submit twice per week, proper, than to simply enhance your high quality again and again and over. At a sure level you’re gonna hit this diminishing returns threshold, and that may be laborious to seek out – we’ve spent so lengthy attempting to determine what that “cry uncle” level is. However when you try this, then I believe it’s actually necessary that you simply double down and determine precisely what’s high quality in your viewers. I’m gonna pause there, have a dramatic pause.
I believe there’s nobody factor that could be a marker for high quality. It’s all relying on who your viewers is, how refined they’re, what kinda issues they really wanna hear from you. That can dictate what you consider and publish as high quality, so for me on the finish of this I used to be like, “Nice, our viewers desires to listen to actually complete posts, however in addition they need actually short-form infographics and enjoyable – we name them “TOFU” posts, top-of-the-funnel posts. They need all of it. That’s high quality to them, and that was encouraging to me to see that there’s a combination of posts that may be deemed as high quality.
Dan: It’s additionally so laborious to isolate high quality, isn’t it?
Ginny: Sure.
Dan: Like so usually the submit that you simply suppose is gonna do actually, rather well and persons are gonna love bombs.
Ginny: Yeah.
Dan: And possibly the one which possibly you threw collectively and was like, “Eh, adequate” swiftly goes viral or one thing.
Ginny: Sure, it occurs on a regular basis, and on the one hand that’s the one factor I actually, actually love about running a blog. You by no means essentially know. You’re all the time attempting to get extra information to determine just a bit bit extra about what would possibly work sooner or later.
Dan: And also you want amount to do this, proper?
Ginny: Yeah, yeah, in case you’re solely publishing one submit a month or one submit per week, it’s actually laborious to get a sufficiently big pattern to have the ability to say definitively this works, and this doesn’t.
Dan: And it’s additionally much less probably that that one submit is gonna be a grand slam.
Ginny: Precisely.
Dan: Nicely, a lot of your submit facilities across the various kinds of content material that you simply publish. I needed to zero in on just a few of them particularly, however first off how did you go about growing these codecs, and the way do you just be sure you’re constantly creating content material with these classes in thoughts? Does that sort of rule your editorial calendar?
Ginny: Yeah, yeah, so I’ll reply this in two elements, actually, as a result of the growing was sort of backwards, actually. I’ve been at HubSpot for 2 and a half years now and it’s been primarily within the trenches. I spent loads of my time writing. I spent loads of my time modifying and simply seeing each single submit that we revealed, so once we needed to do that experiment, we needed to retroactively categorize all these posts, and we’ve experimented a ton within the time that I’ve been right here and far more earlier than I really arrived. We tried issues — we name them “under-100 posts” — and so they’re actually explaining one thing in below 100 phrases. We tried infographics and GIFs to clarify sure ideas, and we sort of had been attempting out these totally different codecs.
After I went to do that evaluation, I seemed again and noticed what most frequently had been these unifying traits between sure submit varieties. We really began off with solely 5 of those we ended up publishing, however as we began to look by way of the posts, we noticed we had extra submit codecs emerge. So it actually was ensuring that we had been doing our due diligence each within the preliminary categorization after which reviewing that, but it surely was actually retroactive. We checked out what we did and what labored and labored again from there.
Dan: So that you found submit codecs that you simply didn’t even notice you had in that course of?
Ginny: Yeah, TOFU is the right instance for this. This isn’t a format that we sometimes would construct into our editorial calendar. It was one thing that we had been like, “I’m wondering if folks would really like this matter? It’s a bit bit totally different than what we usually do, however let’s strive it.” We tried it on a extra constant foundation, and we ended up having sufficient posts that we might use within the evaluation. So we tried to return from there. Somewhat than attempting to shoehorn posts into codecs we selected, we labored again and labored with what we had.
Dan: Yeah, I needed to ask you about these TOFU posts as a result of I believe HubSpot’s actually recognized for that, properly, recognized for the time period on the whole and recognized for producing that content material. I’ve to confess the primary time we noticed a submit right here in your weblog, one thing like “Ten Scrumptious Recipes You Can Make in Your Workplace Kitchen,” a few of us raised an eyebrow, and we’re like, “Why is that on a advertising and marketing weblog?” So what did you find out about these sorts of posts and the function that they play in your advertising and marketing funnel?
Ginny: Yeah, completely, that’s a fantastic query as a result of actually once we first talked about doing them right here, we had been actually skeptical. We had been like, “Uh, I don’t know if that is one thing we must be publishing. I don’t know if persons are gonna prefer it as a result of it’s simply one thing that my staff and I are geeking out on and thought was humorous or related, and possibly it will completely bomb.” However the factor is we’re all the time experimenting, so we’d relatively put a submit out and have it bomb and be taught from it than to not have tried in any respect. So we began publishing them extra, and so they began to essentially take off.
What’s fascinating about these posts is they convey in people who find themselves sometimes – we name it “exterior our gene pool,” individuals who possibly have by no means heard of HubSpot, possibly have by no means heard of inbound advertising and marketing, however could be eager about listening to about how enterprise works, how advertising and marketing works, what issues would possibly matter to marketer – the “Scrumptious Recipes In Your Workplace Kitchen You Can Make.” They’re these unifying experiences that extra folks have than possibly simply those that weblog or simply those that do search engine optimisation or those that simply do touchdown web page optimization, so we wanna have the ability to handle these wants as properly as a result of entrepreneurs are well-rounded folks, and I might love folks to provide our readers that sort of content material as properly.
Dan: I suppose touchdown web page optimizers and SEOs all nonetheless make lunch.
Ginny: Precisely, all people’s gotta eat, so there’s a means for us to speak to that. We nonetheless must discover a candy spot, proper?
Dan: Uh huh.
Ginny: We will’t simply be like, “Meals You Can Eat” – all people has meals. Lots of people who learn our weblog, they’re the hacky sort who in all probability work at startups and loads of startups have perks and a kind of is likely to be an workplace kitchen with snacks, so it’s one thing that our readers can actually relate to that it’s not associated to advertising and marketing software program, however it’s associated to our readers and one thing they care about.
Dan: And the way did that submit do ultimately?
Ginny: Really it did rather well. We acquired numerous feedback. Individuals had been like, “Oh, I would like to do this.” A few of the recipes folks had been a bit doubtful about, which I completely perceive. They’re workplace kitchen recipes you’re hacking collectively, not essentially the belongings you wanna make for a pleasant meal, but it surely did fairly properly, yeah.
Dan: Have another entrepreneurs – in addition to me I suppose – given you a tough time about it?
Ginny: Oh, yeah, yeah. Individuals are like, “Actually, guys? Are you actually gonna do GIFs of your workplace kitchen recipes?” You recognize what, I believe it’s legitimate suggestions, however once more, I’d relatively experiment with it. That is in all probability not our greatest TOFU submit, but it surely’s positively one which I used to be excited to strive.
Dan: Cool, yeah. Yeah, I like that angle of let’s simply strive it and see what occurs.
Ginny: Completely.
Dan: Inform me about one other format of yours, promotional posts. I do know as inbound entrepreneurs we sometimes attempt to keep away from being overtly promotional on our blogs, however just a few of those posts have really been fairly efficient at lead era, proper?
Ginny: You’re asking me all the nice questions. That is one other one which we had been very skeptical, and me personally, I used to be like, “I don’t actually really feel tremendous comfy with this,” however what acquired me on board was actually serious about what we had been selling. We’re not selling our software program. We’re not saying, “Hand over your bank card. Purchase our software program now.” It’s simply letting folks know in regards to the content material that we’re publishing. It’s often a few new e book or a device we’ve created. It’s actually simply teeing you as much as devour a distinct piece of content material.
Dan: So that you’re simply selling extra of the factor that they’re already studying. It’s not such as you’re baiting and switching them. You’re simply giving them extra of that.
Ginny: Yeah, precisely, and that I believe the rationale they’re so profitable from a lead era level is as a result of we’re very direct about what the submit is about. It’s actually like, “New e book: The way to Get 100,000 Readers for Your Weblog.” We’re not saying, “Listed below are the secrets and techniques to producing 100,000 readers,” and abruptly we’re like, “Right here’s a type to obtain it.” We’re very overt in our title that this can be a free obtain, this can be a free device, so persons are self-selecting into these posts.
Dan: Yeah, we really had the same expertise the place once we used to launch an e book previously, we might attempt to write this complete submit round it. The thought was the submit itself must be actually worthwhile for folks, so it will be like 1,00-word posts the place on the finish it was like, “Oh, and right here’s this free e book.” Then we realized that we had been simply burying the lede at that time, proper?
Ginny: Yup, precisely.
Dan: You’re not doing anyone a service in case you’re not clear in regards to the factor that you simply’re advertising and marketing to them or that you simply’re giving to them free of charge on prime of it.
Ginny: Yeah, precisely, precisely. I believe we’ve continued to do these, and it’s one thing I’ll proceed to maintain my eye on as a result of possibly in six months we discover that we’ve hit diminishing returns with this submit sort, however I believe if we’re being sincere and saying, “That is an e book. If you’d like it, obtain it,” and folks really do, then we’re giving folks what they need.
Dan: So two of your most prolific submit codecs are what you name tactical and deep tactical. Are you able to clarify the distinction between these two and what you realized about how every of them performs for you guys?
Ginny: Yeah, completely. So our deep tactical posts are actually, actually complete, and a one-person weblog that we’ve admired a ton is Moz. They’re the right instance of deep tactical posts.
Dan: Completely.
Ginny: They’ve actually complete information. They’ve actually actionable examples. They use quotes. They use stats. They actually again up their arguments with extra than simply “it’s best to do this,” and so they’re additionally typically lengthy.
Dan: Yeah.
Ginny: They’re often like 1,500 phrases or above, generally 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, however typically they are surely comprehensively protecting a subject.
Dan: In all probability not a coincidence that their roots are in search engine optimisation, both.
Ginny: Yeah, precisely. They’re actually, actually search-friendly giving serps extra alternatives to seek out one thing related in your submit. I believe tactical however, they’re a bit bit extra run-of-the-mill sort weblog posts, and that’s as a result of generally they’ll handle subjects that individuals simply wanna learn about, however they’re kinda quick, simply “5 Fast Suggestions,” that form of factor, and generally they’re quick simply because there’s no more to cowl. For instance, we’ll do these posts known as “fast ideas,” so that they’ll be like, “The way to Pin a Pinterest Board On Your Web site,” like how one can embed it. You don’t want greater than 300 phrases on that. I don’t suppose anyone desires to learn greater than 300 phrases on how one can really embed a Pinterest board.
Dan: Proper.
Ginny: So and that’s high quality. It’s serving a really particular goal, in order that’s how I consider the distinction between deep tactical and tactical, and generally it’s a gray space in between. It’s the character of getting a spectrum of a sure sort of submit, however I believe their outcomes are wildly totally different. The deep tactical outperforms tactical by an enormous quantity. The deep tactical will get 75 % extra views than the everyday submit that we publish, whereas tactical will get 9 % much less.
Dan: And that is the, I suppose, you measure most of these posts primarily on views.
Ginny: Yeah, so views. We additionally checked out leads. Deep tactical and tactical did okay for leads, tactical a bit bit greater than deep tactical, which I believe kinda speaks to the purpose that you simply talked about earlier than, burying the lede. It’s in all probability only a issue of the comprehensiveness of the deep tactical. It takes a very long time to unravel the submit the place the CTA is, and that’s okay. Over time I believe that we are able to determine methods to optimize these posts in a non-spammy means. I’m not too involved as a result of they each aren’t this large lead generator anyway.
Dan: Nicely, they each serve totally different roles, proper.
Ginny: Sure, completely.
Dan: One factor I discover a bit stunning out of your findings is that none of your posts show to be significantly good at producing each visitors and leads. Why do you suppose that’s?
Ginny: Yeah, oh, I want we discovered that. When you discover that, let me know. I’ll must strive it out.
Dan: All proper.
Ginny: I began serious about that extra as a result of in the end that might be the perfect case, proper? We care loads about leads. We care loads about visitors. If we might simply clear up for each, then possibly we might reduce down on the variety of posts that we publish, or there’s a lot we might do if we discovered that golden ticket. However I believe all of it comes right down to what persons are doing once they’re going to your submit. In the event that they’re gonna grow to be a lead, they’re in a really totally different mindset. They’re in all probability researching and voraciously in search of extra info. They’re prepared to provide over their electronic mail. They’re prepared to fill out 13 subject varieties to provide you their info and obtain that e book.
They’re simply in a distinct analysis mode whereas I believe in case you’re simply viewing an article, it’s way more passive. You’re in all probability scanning it by way of, selecting out a pair issues that you simply like, hopefully in a great world make all of it the way in which to the tip, however you’re in all probability emailing it to your boss or your co-workers or your folks being like, “Hey, examine this out.” You wanna look sensible, you wanna look knowledgeable, you wanna share your information. These are very totally different behaviors and motivations, so I believe for sure posts which are designed for one motivation or the opposite, that sort of is smart.
Dan: No, it completely is smart. Yeah, and it’s form of validating that each one proper, I’m gonna do any such submit. I’m not gonna anticipate that it generates leads as a result of the purpose of this submit is to get views, and one other submit like if it doesn’t have a loopy quantity of social shares or views, that’s okay since you’ve made the choice that this can be a lead generator, so I believe that kinda frees you as much as actually focus your content material on what it’s good at and what it’s meant for.
Ginny: Yeah, completely agree.
Dan: Okay, so the final sort of submit that I wanna ask you about is what you name editorial posts. I believe it’s the kinda submit, a minimum of for me as an editor, it’s the kinda factor I geek out over, so I used to be a bit bit crestfallen by your findings right here. Are you able to clarify what your editorial posts appear like and what you realized about them?
Ginny: Yeah, this one I used to be unhappy, too. They’re actually cool posts to work on, and whenever you’re writing loads of very tactical, useful content material, generally breaking out into an editorial type submit feels actually releasing and thrilling, and my staff loves writing them. We speak and categorize editorial posts as posts that don’t actually have a tactical takeaway, such as you’re not gonna go execute on one thing after studying this submit, however they usually have a story. They inform some form of story. They is likely to be data-driven, telling some story utilizing that information. Different instances they’re primarily based off of interviews or private experiences, however they’re way more narrative-driven relatively than about executing on one thing, however we discovered that they carry out even worse than our tactical posts.
Dan: Oh, no.
Ginny: Yeah, they get 18 % fewer views than our typical submit, which is so unlucky, however really this kinda goes again to us persevering with to experiment and our previous experimenting. I believe it actually comes right down to choosing the right subjects and never eliminating this as an entire, however extra of simply figuring out the subjects that individuals really wanna examine and would really take the day out of their day to learn one thing that’s not gonna instantly influence them that day.
Dan: Do you suppose there’s a solution to make these posts possibly a bit extra actionable prefer to weave a bit bit extra narrative or story into your tactical posts? Can you have got it each methods, do you suppose?
Ginny: Perhaps. I’d be prepared to strive it.
Dan: Yeah.
Ginny: However I’m wondering if it will get to be the identical means the place you’ll be able to’t actually do – or we haven’t discovered a solution to do – lead era and visitors era on the similar time.
Dan: Proper.
Ginny: When you’re attempting to do all of the issues, are you actually gonna try this factor very properly?
Dan: Yeah, and it’s one thing that we wrestle with as properly, and we’re beginning to sort of experiment with the case examine as format on the weblog. Case research often make folks’s eyes glaze over, however we determine if we might discover a actually good story that yeah, includes the shopper, but it surely’s actually about the issue that they solved and in addition how they did it – embrace a very actionable tactic that different folks might be taught from.
Ginny: Yeah.
Dan: And we’re hoping possibly it may be a very good editorial submit and be tactical sufficient for folks to wanna share it and do all these different good issues.
Ginny: Completely. Nicely, I believe in that case it’s an instance. Individuals love examples, particularly round hard-to-find issues like touchdown pages, conversion fee optimization. That’s not one thing you’ll be able to simply go to someone’s web site and establish, so I believe in that case we’ve accomplished a few of these posts earlier than, and people work rather well, too. So I’d love to listen to how these begin understanding for you, too.
Dan: Cool, yeah, I’ll let you realize, however anyway, sufficient about us. Now that you simply’ve run this experiment, the place do you go from right here? How has it modified the way in which you method your editorial calendar?
Ginny: Yeah, it’s been loopy spending a lot time sort of looking at our personal stomach buttons being like, “How are we doing?” after which having to search for and alter issues primarily based off of that. I believe the most important takeaway from this analysis was we must be doing far more of the deep tactical posts, we simply have to. We have to commit the time to doing them, and we additionally must be making a concerted effort for extra of the TOFU posts. I believe that these two, spending extra of our time doing that and fewer of our time on a number of the tactical posts will assist us develop quicker. After I was designing this new editorial technique and searching on the numbers and attempting to undertaking if we modify issues, what would occur, it’s all the time a balancing recreation.
It’s important to take into consideration what the submit goes to realize. Is it visitors? Is it leads? How a lot ought to I anticipate? It’s important to take into consideration how a lot time is it really gonna take. Am I gonna be spending 10 hours on this submit, and can it’s solely producing 10 % extra leads, or might I be spending an hour on a submit and get 20 % extra leads? We additionally must preserve our viewers squarely in thoughts and particularly what they could suppose over time, so is this useful for us constructing our enterprise in the long run? Will this set us up a yr or two years from now to be in a very good spot as a enterprise? So these are the issues I stored in thoughts. Clearly some are very, very zoomed in, and a few are very zoomed out, however that’s actually simply what I stored in thoughts as I used to be designing that.
Dan: So might we anticipate a brand new workplace kitchen vertical on the HubSpot weblog?
Ginny: We’ll see, we’ll see. It is likely to be a brand new experiment.
Dan: Superior. Now I’m simply supplying you with a tough time. I discovered this experiment and this submit tremendous worthwhile, and it made me rethink our personal editorial technique, so thanks a lot for sharing.
Ginny: Nicely, thanks for studying it. I do know it was a really, very lengthy submit, so it’s good to have somebody to geek out over these items with.
Dan: Completely. Thanks a lot for taking the time to speak, Ginny.
Ginny: It was completely my pleasure. Thanks.
Stephanie: That was Ginny Soskey, Advertising and marketing Weblog Editor at HubSpot. Have you ever tried any publishing experiments not too long ago that you simply suppose we must always learn about? If that’s the case, e-mail us at podcast.unbounce.com. We’d love to listen to about what you’re testing. That’s your Name to Motion. Thanks for listening.
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