Embrace your vulnerability.
Good copywriters aren’t afraid to place themselves on the market. They write from the guts and let their true voice shine via of their work.
However being genuine shouldn’t come on the expense of writing clear, useful copy. So how do you make your boss and shoppers blissful with out sacrificing your voice?
On this episode of the Call to Action podcast, we chat with Unbounce author Brad Tiller about reconciling your organization’s (or consumer’s) voice and your personal. Then, we communicate to Brian Lenney, copywriter at Inbound.org, about how one can use the facility vulnerability in your copy to attach with prospects and push them towards conversion.
You’ll be taught:
- How a person with a gun taught Brian a priceless advertising and marketing lesson.
- Why you must take extra dangers together with your copywriting when looking for employment or contracts.
- Why saying “no” to sure contracts is okay — particularly when it’s a query of honoring your integrity.
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Talked about within the podcast
Learn the transcript
On this episode: Dan Levy, Unbounce’s Content material Strategist, interviews Brian Lenney, copywriter at Inbound.org.
Stephanie Saretsky: Each model has a voice. Relying on the corporate’s dimension and scope, that voice might need a rigorously curated sound or it might come throughout because the sum of many voices. As writers transition from firm to firm, it is smart that there could be a little bit of an adjustment interval in writing model.
Brad Tiller: The most important distinction for me was a shift from writing largely in regards to the product itself to extra so writing in regards to the concepts across the product.
Stephanie Saretsky: That’s Brad Tiller, a content material author right here at Unbounce. We have been speaking about what it’s wish to stability your private writing model with the voice of the model that you just work for. Since writing is such a deeply private medium I used to be very curious to know what Brad’s ideas have been on the topic.
Brad Tiller: I’d by no means discovered a number of strain to adapt to an Unbounce voice as a result of I don’t assume Unbounce has a singular voice. It has that driving imaginative and prescient and that shapes the voice, clearly but it surely’s actually extra a couple of consistency in the best way we clarify issues. I don’t modify my voice after I write for Unbounce. I modify the best way that I strategy explaining issues. I actually deal with breaking issues right down to their most core elements, the basics and explaining every basic clearly earlier than transferring on.
I feel it’s to Unbounce’s profit that there isn’t this unifying voice as a result of I actually really feel like our content material retains a number of its persona due to that, that we’re not at all times fearful about being on-brand within the sense that; oh, Unbounce makes use of these phrases and Unbounce solely explains issues on this method. Like, we attain for that consistency as a result of we would like folks to have the ability to learn our content material from many alternative authors and nonetheless have the ability to see how the concepts join collectively and string them collectively.
Stephanie Saretsky: I’m Stephanie Saretsky and also you’re listening to Name to Motion, the podcast about creating higher advertising and marketing experiences. As a copywriter or a content material author, typically it might really feel such as you’re Jekyll and Hyde. On one hand you wish to be a author and categorical your personal voice and your personal writing model however however you could get these conversions and you could make your boss blissful. So how do you get that money with out fully promoting your self out?
Brian Linney: My identify is Brian Lenney. I’m a copywriter for Inbound.org.
Stephanie Saretsky: Brian is super-passionate about weak copywriting so he spoke with our content material strategist, Dan Levy, a couple of man with a gun taught him an vital advertising and marketing lesson and how one can really use your vulnerability to your benefit when crafting copy that converts.
Dan Levy: You begin your put up off with a narrative about one thing kinda traumatic that occurred to you in your method again from a wrestling event again in highschool. Are you able to arrange that scene for us?
Brian Lenney: Yeah. So after I was a youngster I used to be a reasonably wild child, at all times stepping into bother, sort of like a Bart Simpson-type child, inflicting issues, stuff like that. And it normally needed to do nearly each time with opening my mouth. So I used to be at all times that child. So I used to be in wrestling in highschool. One evening we acquired again from a event and on the best way house, driving house with buddies, we noticed two vehicles stepping into an accident. So my pure inclination within the backseat was to yell out the window at these guys, “Discover ways to drive a-holes.” You already know? I don’t know, 16 years previous, proper?
So it simply entered my thoughts. I stated it no filter, simply yelled at them with no thought of what which may result in. And what it did result in was each of the blokes getting again into their automotive, as a result of apparently it seems like they knew one another, and chasing us, reducing us off, boxing us in. You already know, that is after a couple of ten minute chase, if you wish to name it that, of them attempting to run us off the street, stuff like that. In order that they ended up reducing us off, blocking us so we couldn’t go ahead. We couldn’t go backwards.
And one man acquired out with an enormous ass gun, I imagine it was a 357 Magnum. It was a giant revolver like Soiled Harry kind factor, began strolling in direction of me. I don’t know in the event you’ve seen the film, Tombstone, when Kurt Russell walks throughout the river and he’s simply pointing the gun at folks strolling – however began strolling trying proper at me. And he stated, “You wish to open your huge mouth once more?” Which I didn’t.
Earlier than the man acquired too shut, my buddy slammed the truck into reverse, drove via – actually reversed via three to 4 folks’s lawns who, fortunately, didn’t have their vehicles of their driveway. And we acquired out alive, clearly. So it was fairly intense. Glad he didn’t shoot.
Dan Levy: Whoa. Yeah. That’s one thing straight out of Compton stuff proper there.
Brian Lenney: Yeah, undoubtedly. Yeah.
Dan Levy: That’s – yeah, that’s a very intense story. Listeners are in all probability questioning although what it has to do with advertising and marketing. You say that you just realized a priceless advertising and marketing lesson that day. What was that?
Brian Lenney: Yeah. Properly, you understand, to be sincere, I didn’t be taught the lesson that day. I had a collection of occasions like that going ahead, however I did be taught the lesson years later as I grew up and kinda matured somewhat bit, trying again at that day. So my whole life I’ve been advised that I can’t do that or you possibly can’t say that or that’s crossing the road, stuff like that. So I at all times acquired an A within the classroom and like a F within the playground. That’s how my elementary faculty lecturers graded me.
So at all times in bother due to my mouth, however on the similar time, at all times excelling within the classroom due to it, too. So it’s sort of like a double-edged sword. So I feel the lesson I realized sort of trying again at that and again and again is whenever you open your mouth you are taking a threat. Now, sometimes, concepts have penalties, proper, after we say one thing.
Lots of people, although, have a look at threat taking as detrimental but it surely doesn’t should be detrimental like getting a gun pulled on you. It may be good. I’m on the crew at Inbound.org and that’s one of many merchandise of HubSpot Labs. So I acquired that job after I actually utilized for the job with a quote from Anchorman. And –
Dan Levy: What was the quote?
Brian Lenney: So that they had the job posting up for a copywriter and one of many sentences that they had within the job description was how a lot superior are you able to pack into one sentence? So actually I emailed them and I utilized. I stated, “This job description stings the nostrils. If you wish to know extra, e-mail me again.” And Sam, who’s the crew lead over at HubSpot labs, he despatched me a e-mail again. And he stated, “I like lamp. Let me see a few of your writing.”
So it was a threat they have been gonna assume I used to be an fool and inform me to pound sand. Or they might say, “Oh, this man’s kinda completely different. Let’s see if we are able to carry him on.” So opening your mouth actually, verbally or whenever you do it on-line, it’s dangerous. However the dangers might be good and they are often value if it you get to go to mattress at evening realizing that you just acquired to be your self. But additionally I’ve that concern of crossing the road typically.
Dan Levy: Proper. It’s a double-edged sword, I suppose.
Brian Lenney: Undoubtedly.
Dan Levy: I wish to ask you somewhat bit about your copywriting prowess afterward. However first, you cite in your put up that well-known Ted Speak by Brené Brown on vulnerability. What doe being weak as a marketer appear like to you?
Brian Lenney: For me, her Ted Speak actually – I noticed that when it first got here out after I was working at an company really. And that actually linked like a remaining dot for me of like, “Oh, okay. That is what we’re lacking in advertising and marketing.” So in my expertise, lots of people in advertising and marketing fake like they’re not actual folks, you understand, simply since you’re a marketer doesn’t imply you don’t have opinions, views, quirks. It doesn’t imply you don’t have one thing to say about politics and faith. Clearly, you wish to do this correctly, however being weak as a marketer simply signifies that you get to be you. And that’s okay in the event you get to be you.
Or as Brené Brown places it in her Ted Speak and in her books, she talks about being weak — whenever you’re letting your self be seen, the actual you. That doesn’t imply it needs to be all of you or full you, but it surely’s letting folks sort of look into your life and letting your self be seen.
So so far as vulnerability goes, all of us battle, all of us have points. And when you possibly can incorporate that into your advertising and marketing — sort of letting the battle present somewhat bit, stuff like that, letting the problems possibly peak via, quirkiness, weirdness — folks determine with that as a result of, like I stated, all of us have tales. All of us battle.
So whenever you discuss it otherwise you write about it or you possibly can even – typically it’s troublesome, although. When you possibly can incorporate that into your advertising and marketing you sort of earn the precise to be heard since you’re constructing belief, you’re constructing relational capital and folks respect that. And after they belief you, they’ll do enterprise with you.
Dan Levy: Are you able to consider an instance of a specific firm or a advertising and marketing marketing campaign that you just’ve both been concerned with or come throughout not too long ago, by which being weak led to stunning outcomes?
Brian Lenney: Yeah. The final job I had earlier than I jumped ship from the company world and began freelancing was at a hospice company, which is de facto bizarre advertising and marketing hospice as a result of it’s finish of life and also you’re assembly with households who’ve a dying liked one, stuff like that. So my –
Dan Levy: Discuss being weak, wow.
Brian Lenney: Yeah. Yeah. It’s – and also you wouldn’t assume there’s competitors in hospice, which is finish of life care. Sometimes, somebody who has a terminal sickness whose – a health care provider has given them six months or much less to dwell. However my step dad died 4 years in the past and we acquired to expertise that as a household. So when simply by pure probability a buddy of a buddy kind factor acquired a job at a hospice company in a advertising and marketing – which I believed was odd, however I did that.
So one of many campaigns we did, we known as it, “Have you ever had the discuss?” And what we did is – the one factor we did is we went out to the group, medical doctors, places of work, hospitals, actually inbound, outbound, door-to-door, on-line and we simply shared tales about our personal households, the precise advertising and marketing crew, and experiences we had caring for family members whereas they have been dying, me attending to say goodbye to my stepdad whereas he was on his demise mattress and the way I want we’d have known as hospice sooner, stuff like that. We had members of the family of our sufferers who had died already, handed away, we had them come again and say, “Wow, hospice did this for us.”
But it surely was actually intense, actually intense, tales, a lot of tears, a lot of crying. However we did video, copy, all the things. And the outcome was we had lots of people join Hospice. We had a number of inbound calls. We had a number of referrals as a result of folks recognized with our tales. When individuals are dealing with battle, a number of occasions they really feel like they’re alone.
However whenever you’re coming to them sharing your story, saying, “Hey, I’ve been there, too, and I’ve struggled with this, too. And I do know what it’s like,” and also you’re simply kinda sharing your story, they belief you. And that’s whenever you’re being genuine and also you’re basically giving them a chunk of your life. And whenever you do that individuals have a tendency to provide again.
So we – it’s an terrible method to take a look at it as enterprise, but it surely actually is. I imply, we acquired a number of enterprise. We had lots of people join hospice after that due to our tales.
Dan Levy: Wow. What a robust instance. What do you assume the results are of not being weak as a marketer?
Brian Lenney: That’s a very good query. I’m really studying Brené Brown’s latest e book proper now known as Rising Robust, which is about bouncing again after failure. So she has three books. That is sort of just like the capstone, like, “Hey you failed. You’ve fallen down, time to get again up,” kind factor.
And in that e book she talks about people who find themselves at all times compartmentalizing their lives or hiding elements of themselves or modifying their tales in an try and look higher or not let folks see them. However I feel the results of not being weak as a marketer is you’re being faux. You’re not being real, I feel. A part of that’s – I feel it’s an integrity concern as a result of folks wish to see and get to know you. They wish to know who you might be. They wish to hear your tales, your struggles, your flaws.
One among my favourite copywriters – I’m unsure in the event you’re accustomed to her. Her identify’s Ash Ambirge. She runs the copywriting gig, I suppose you can name it, known as the Center Finger Mission, which is a good identify. However she’s a grasp storyteller. The stuff she writes about, she talks overtly, writes overtly in regards to the good, the unhealthy, the ugly, her struggles, her failures, when she’s blown it as a marketer, as a copywriter. She’s only a actually, actually weak, superb storyteller.
However due to that, she’s constructed a tribe round herself and she or he’s letting folks see her. And folks love her for it. She’s killing it business-wise. She’s simply – she’s doing actually nice. And I feel that’s as a result of she’s an awesome storyteller. She lets herself be seen and folks respect that. But when we’re not weak, if we don’t let ourselves be seen, I feel we’re simply – we’re sort of promoting ourselves brief, I feel.
Dan Levy: Properly, you’re a copywriter, and conversion-centered copywriter at that. I’m questioning in the event you may consider an occasion the place you’ve used vulnerability – and to not make it sound crass, however you’ve used vulnerability as a persuasion precept both on a touchdown web page or different type of advertising and marketing copy, put it one other method, can vulnerability and conversion work collectively?
Brian Lenney: Yeah, I feel they’ll. This one sort of occurred on accident so I wasn’t attempting to be weak however I feel a part of being weak is you’re not technically attempting. You’re simply being you, letting the chips kinda fall the place they might. So I’ve gotten a number of – on my web site I’ve – it’s fairly minimal. I simply redid it with Unbounce touchdown pages, by the best way, so good product there.
Dan Levy: Good to know. Thanks.
Brian Lenney: My About web page is simply – it’s not a typical About web page. It’s not similar to, “Right here’s who I’m, right here’s how lengthy I’ve been writing, right here’s the way you get ahold of me.” It’s simply sort of my story, so on the highest of my About web page it’s my story of how I turned a contract copywriter, kinda brief model. And I simply inform my story about frustration within the company world and I do know it’s not – freelancing, clearly, it’s not for everybody. However for me I felt just like the 9:00 to five:00 sort of workplace job at a typical company or advertising and marketing agency, it nearly drove me loopy.
So I’ve had a number of shoppers contact me. Unsolicited, they’ve stated, “Hey, I learn your About web page. I like your story. I need you to write down like that for us.” And on my About web page, it’s simply me saying I hated the company world. It wasn’t for me. I needed to be my very own boss kind factor. And it’s gotten me a number of shoppers. I’ve had one-time gigs off of that. I’ve had a pair retainer shoppers that have been actually long-term retainer sort of tasks.
So it was weak. It was being me. It was sort of like — I’m simply gonna inform my story about, like, “Who is that this man? How did he change into a author? What’s his deal?” And it was a little bit of being weak, however folks respect it. And I’ve had extra feedback on my About web page than anything on my website, so.
Dan Levy: Yeah. It appears a bit counterintuitive, I suppose, to cut back issues like vulnerability and being your self into persuasion ways or like actionable ideas as a result of I feel when you do that you just get away from the genuineness of it. However that being stated, being human advertising and marketing to different people, folks have a tendency to acknowledge that and truly gravitate in direction of that, so.
Brian Lenney: Yeah. Yeah, undoubtedly. Hubspot is team-based however one factor we are saying on our crew, I’m fairly positive it’s sort of a team-wide factor we are saying at Hubspot is: “We’re entrepreneurs advertising and marketing to entrepreneurs about advertising and marketing,” you understand, with Inbound.org particularly.
Dan Levy: Yeah. We are able to relate to that at Unbounce.
Brian Lenney: Yeah, undoubtedly, so I imply, sort of what you stated — in the event you take out marketer and put human in there, we’re people advertising and marketing to different people and after we can actually, really be ourselves and act human and share ourselves with different folks, folks respect it. And I feel it’s particularly with this millennial youthful era arising, the 18 to 34 sort of class, they’ve grown up with the web. They’ve grown up with expertise, advertising and marketing, gross sales, purchase this, click on right here, do this. And I feel they’re sick of it.
I imply, all the info and issues I’ve learn on it, folks simply need – you understand what I imply? Folks simply wish to have a human connection. They’re sick of being offered to and marketed at. And I feel after they come throughout one thing that’s human and is actual, that’s – it actually speaks to folks.
Dan Levy: I wish to shift gears just a bit bit as a result of I’d wish to get into a number of the copywriting that you just’ve accomplished. You’ve taken half in a pair completely different copywriting contests that we’ve held right here at Unbounce in the previous few months, I suppose. And considered one of them ended up really successful you a free journey to Vancouver for our Name to Motion convention final month. Are you able to inform us somewhat bit in regards to the touchdown web page copy that you just wrote for that contest that received you the grand prize and the way you went about it?
Brian Lenney: Yeah. That was – the Unbounce CTA convention was simply superb. I had an awesome journey up there. You guys are superb hosts. I’ll simply – brief model.
Dan Levy: Thanks.
Brian Lenney: So yeah, that one, it was the DJ Roomba. For individuals who weren’t accustomed to the competition, it was writing a touchdown web page copy for a product from Parks and Rec that doesn’t really exist, a robotic music enjoying vacuum cleaner.
Dan Levy: That is just like the second or third Parks & Rec reference on this podcast.
Brian Lenney: Sure. Yeah, true. I’m an enormous fan. I used to be unhappy when it ended. So yeah, with that one, that was robust. So I imply, trying again, I feel was somewhat bit verbose so far as the size of it. However what I used to be going for there was quirky, humorous, attempting to get folks to determine with humor. I feel studying via all the opposite contestants, there was a number of actually nice stuff. It’s robust. It was really actually robust writing copy for one thing that doesn’t exist.
However I feel my model, my pure voice, I like to write down like I discuss. So I’ve had a number of folks say, “I learn your copy for — I felt like we have been simply having espresso and also you have been simply sharing with me.” So on that one I used humor to sort of break down limitations to make it sound like an actual dialog. And I used, in fact, I used a Ron Swanson testimony, which Demian Farnworth thought was nice. So I scored some factors with the judges there.
And I feel utilizing humor and writing such as you discuss, that additionally connects with folks. That was a tricky contest, although. I imply, the judges have been ruthless. I feel you have been one of many judges weren’t you?
Dan Levy: I feel I used to be considered one of them, yeah.
Brian Lenney: Yeah. So I imply –
Dan Levy: We didn’t pull our punches there.
Brian Lenney: But it surely was useful. Folks realized lots. The factor I realized from that and from Joanna from Copy Hackers and a number of the folks within the Unbounce sort of posse is that I should be clear. I have to deal with readability greater than cleverness. After I first began copywriting, I attempted to be too intelligent, which is clearly you understand what means, however tried to be too witty or too intelligent. However all that does is find yourself complicated folks.
Dan Levy: Do you keep in mind what your headline was for the fictional DJ Roomba product on the touchdown web page?
Brian Lenney: Yeah. It was – what was it? It was, “No Extra Soiled Flooring, Means Extra Soiled Dancing.” You already know? And the subhead stated – I pulled it up proper right here – the subhead says, “Do you dream of dancing round your home bare to an limitless loop of the Black Eyed Peas whereas another person cleans your home? Meet DJ Roomba.”
Clearly, it’s somewhat click on baity sort of humorous humorous, but when it will get folks to maintain studying that’s the objective of excellent – the objective of a headline is to get folks to learn the primary sentence. The objective of the primary sentence to get them to learn the second, third, fourth and so forth till you hit the button.
Dan Levy: And yeah, possibly it’s extra humorous than weak on this case, but it surely’s nonetheless taking a threat, which I feel is the primary takeaway of your put up there.
Brian Lenney: Yeah. I imply, there’s a consumer I’ve proper now and I’ve somebody I’m working for proper now who occurs to be in Canada additionally. And I’m about to submit some stuff. And a few of it’s actually – it’s taking a threat as a result of a number of the headlines are like, “Oh, we are able to’t say that.” However I’m like, “We kinda can, like let’s take a look at it.” So it’s taking a threat, particularly in B2B copy whenever you’re enterprise to enterprise.
Lots of people are afraid of taking dangers however I feel the individuals who have I instantly consider MailChimp. They do some actually humorous stuff and it’s B2B stuff largely, however they’re killing it. And so they’re doing very well as a result of they take a threat they usually sort of inject humor and persona all all through their website that’s conversational and humorous. And folks love them.
Dan Levy: So that you’re clearly a copywriter who is aware of find out how to persuade folks to transform, however you’re additionally somebody who prides himself on being a marketer with integrity. How do you make sure that your copy stays conversion-centered with out promoting your soul within the course of?
Brian Lenney: Weirdly sufficient, I’ve had just a few folks ask that query. And it’s – it’s an awesome query as a result of folks – whenever you say “copywriter” to individuals who aren’t accustomed to advertising and marketing or digital advertising and marketing, lots of people consider, oh, Mad Males and Don Draper and these guys who would simply do something to promote something. However weirdly sufficient for me, personally, it’s not robust.
And what it finally ends up being is I find yourself saying no to lots of people. I select who I work with very rigorously as a result of for me it truly is about integrity. I need to fall asleep on the finish of the day realizing, “Hey, I did this for this consumer and that’s invaluable and it’s gonna assist folks.” However I simply can’t put myself right into a scenario that’s gonna drive me to compromise my values or my beliefs or my integrity. And I simply take a really onerous stand on that.
Clearly, if a consumer or somebody who would possibly wish to work with me contacts me, I’m not gonna say, “Properly, no, I don’t imagine in what you’re doing. Sorry.” I’ll simply inform them, “You already know, I don’t assume we’re an excellent match. I simply – I sort of draw a line within the sand with a number of the web advertising and marketing area of interest, like Make a Million {Dollars} from Your Kitchen Desk in Your Pajamas. I don’t write for these kinds of niches — the guru kind people who find themselves attempting to make everybody millionaires in every week.
So for me I simply – I do know the kinds of folks I wish to work with and I solely work with these folks. As a result of in the event you say sure to a shady consumer or somebody who could be sort of like, oh, I don’t know if what they’re doing is de facto nice. It simply doesn’t sit effectively with me. You already know?
Dan Levy: Yeah. I suppose in the event you actually imagine within the product and you actually imagine that individuals clicking that button on the touchdown web page that that is one thing that’s going to make their life higher or it is a services or products that they really want, then these two issues aren’t actually mutually unique. Proper? Such as you’re persuading them to do one thing that you just really imagine in.
Brian Lenney: I imply, I couldn’t – yeah, I couldn’t say it higher. So I imply, you need to use persuasion and such as you guys and Oli at Unbounce discuss lots. You need to use psychology and persuasion to persuade folks to do one thing, but when what you’re convincing them to do goes to make them a greater particular person and like we are saying in advertising and marketing lots, make them a greater model of themselves, then I don’t thoughts doing it.
Dan Levy: Can you allow us with one actionable tip for writing copy that’s each persuasive and maybe somewhat bit weak?
Brian Lenney: Yeah. So what I do after I write most of my posts, those which are notably weak and the place I actually, actually let myself be seen, what I do is I write as quick as I can, not essentially pace, like I’m not sitting there just like the keyboard’s burning up, however I simply write as quick as I can with out modifying. And I don’t maintain again on something.
What I do is I fake that the one people who find themselves gonna see that is me and god and I’m writing in a journal. So I deal with it like a diary entry, like that is what occurred, that is what I did, that is how I felt. I do begin to end with out stopping. I depart nothing out. I write from the guts. After which after I’m accomplished, I’ll stroll away typically for a day, possibly two, typically relying on what it’s possibly for just a few hours.
After which I’ll come again and I’ll right the typos, edit the grammar, make it possible for – test for readability, make sure that it flows effectively, however I normally find yourself conserving about in all probability – I don’t know, in all probability about 90 p.c of what I write. And I feel whenever you write like that, in the event you’re treating it like a journal or diary, you’re being genuine and also you’re being uncooked. And folks don’t sometimes edit their journals or their diaries.
However I feel the flip facet of that’s in the event you strive too onerous, then you definitely’re not likely being you. You already know what I imply? Like if I’m sitting there I wish to attempt to be weak. And I’m simply sitting there like what can I say? What can I do? Then it’s coming from the top, however whenever you let it come from the guts and simply let it stream, it normally finally ends up being fairly highly effective.
Dan Levy: Properly, I feel that’s actually good recommendation and I actually respect you placing your self on the market on behalf of the remainder of us. So thanks a lot, Brian.
Brian Lenney: Yeah. No drawback.
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